Increased tribunal compensation limits to come into force

Craig Stuart
Member - 109 posts

Marie-Claire,
It's obvious by the tone of your contribution that you have been on the receiving end of a negative experience involving an employee. However, you have to realise that there are hundreds of genuine cases being dealt with by GP's, trade unions and employers alike.

The world at work has drastically changed in the past 5 - 10 years. There is a lot more pressure put on people to work harder, faster and more productively. Employers have had to cut costs to compete and this often leads to staff leaving through natural wastage or redundancies but not being replaced.

Employers can do an awful lot to avoid creating a stress culture in the workplace. The unions recommend employers take a'Stress MOT':

1. Do you collect details of stress-related sickness absence?

2. Is the overall sickness absence rate in the organisation below the national average of 9.3 days a year per employee?

3. If someone took sick leave for stress-related reasons, would you attempt to identify whether the stress was work-related?

4. Do you have a policy for dealing with workplace stress?

5. Does your policy on workplace stress cover health and safety, equality and human resources issues?

6. Were safety reps or the union consulted in the development of your organisation’s stress policy?

7. Are audits or risk assessments carried out for workplace stress?

8. Are safety reps involved in stress risk assessments?

9. Do you have/provide copies of HSE guidance on preventing work-related stress?

10. Are managers given training on managing workplace stress?

11. Are staff given information on workplace stress?

12. Are staff generally confident that they can report suffering from stress, or give stress as the reason for sickness absence, without fear of discipline?

13. Do/would managers act in a sympathetic way to people suffering from workplace stress?

14. Are confidential counselling or similar services available for workers suffering from workplace stress?

15. Would you be prepared to alter working conditions or practices (such as hours, workload or specific tasks) to help someone suffering from stress?

Employing these procedures would significantly reduce stress and create a more proactive environment suited to identifying potential cases before they develop into absence.

MARIE-CLAIRE CHAMBERLAIN
Member - 9 posts

The cases of "work related stress" are far from exactly that. They are purely jumping on the compensation band wagon. Believe me, it is not WORK RELATED stress. They really have no idea of what work related stress is.
How on earth can a GP, who has no idea of a persons work situation put down that stress is due to work when they know nothing of the patients work situation. If a claim of stress is related to the work they do then it should be investigated as to whether the work is causing the stress before the GP puts it down on a sick note. This is a case of "I cant have it my own way so I am going to use the STRESS card" it is disgusting, it is also causing genuine stress on the rest of the work force, who, by the way, do not use the same card, they just pick up the pieces and get on with their jobs. This is just another gate to the claim culture.

Alex Gordon
Member - 27 posts

I notice Marie-Claire that at no point did you attempt during your extremely intolerant rant, that you made no attempt to address any of the points which Stuart made in his well thought out piece.
I speak with two hats on I represent staff as a Trade Union Steward and see the levels of stress poor management leaves staff with. I accept that some are not genuine but most are. Trust me when you see stress manifesting itself in physical ways through secondary illnesses such as psoriasis it is not a sight you want to see twice.
I am also an LA Health and Safety Enforcement Officer within and EHD, the number of stress matters that are coming our way is increasing exponentially. Lawyers pulling in 70 hour weeks, driven to attempt suicide. Call centres were suicides have happened, remember these do not appear as work related deaths in HSE figures.
To use your own words the thing I find truly "disgusting" is that in the 21st century attitudes like yours from the 19th Century still exist.

Jennifer Chapman
Member - 31 posts

Hear blooming Hear Alex

Marie-Claire - who are you trying to persuade - the individual having the panic attack at work, the employee sitting in the dark in the loo having a weep and hoping no-one comes in while they try to sort their head out, or - YOURSELF???

I once used to cope with stress at work in the time-honoured way - ie having a grumble/temper tantrum - and then just getting on with it. But for some reason I became unable to do so any more - had I reached saturation point or what? My diabetes was totally out of control - which would potentially kill me. = more stress. Add some family problems (same problems as had been there before, but now - intolerable. Even more stress. Add someone leaving and everyones workload increased by 20 -25% temporarily. 3 months later it morphed into permananence. I was put on a performance improvement plan. My memory was shot. I was making dreadful mistakes at work. I had official complaints against me. I thought of driving my car into a tree on several occasions; I told myself that was just me being a coward and wouldn't do. I'd been seeing my doc; he said there was nothing up mentally. The disciplinary procedure was invoked.

Eeek! I fell over - physically and mentally.

Could anyone SEE anything of what was happening to me? No - only my poor husband. What caused it? Who knows. I didn't rush off to a tribunal, falling out with one's employer ain't my way. (Even though sometimes there were things that could have been handled better, had managers ever had any training in varous areas)

What was the straw that broke this camel's back?

And - why are you so angry?

Carole Simmons
Member - 96 posts

Dear Dear Dear....Marie Claire you remind me of so many HR Managers (sorry to those who are very good and I know there are a lot of you out there) who still for some reason have their heads stuck up their........! With an attitude like yours how on earth is anything ever going to change. No wonder there IS work place stress because of your kind of blindness and intolerance - you have obviously made up your mind about everyone before they have even walked through your door!

Marie you can call it whatever you like but the facts and figures speak for themselves. The longer people like you go on denying and ranting and taking out whatever it is that you are so angry about on everyone else and making their lives a misery, the more the work place will be a minefield and not somewhere that can be looked forward to and enjoyed. Take a good long hard look at your posts and then think again why other people have written what they have. It’s never too late to TRY to see another’s point of view!

One final note - I am sure if you ask anyone who has been in a situation of having to take their employer to a tribunal if they would rather have not have had to do it, they would all have said it was a last resort. It is not a pleasant experience and certainly not something that is done just for the cash as you imply. For a start there is no guarantee of winning, it takes a long time to get to a tribunal and you have to support yourself sometimes until the case is heard. There can be a backlash which makes getting other employment difficult and above all the stress can be intolerable. So for you to imply that it’s just a simple trip to a GP etc etc then perhaps you should see if it works for yourself as you seem pretty stressed out to me. GP's do not play the game you suggest otherwise half the population would have tried it by now!

It sounds to me as if you either don’t understand or are not able to recognise what work related stress is, so until you are I suggest you stop portraying yourself as some sort of an expert on the subject who can tell that everyone else is a phony!

MARIE-CLAIRE CHAMBERLAIN
Member - 9 posts

You lot have absolutly no idea of this situation and so you are not the sort of people that should be commenting. I am not talking about the genuine stressed people of this world and I am certainly not talking about myself. I have never taken time off with stress at work, how ever stressed I have been. I am not ignorant of true stress and bullying. I made my point quite clear, I am talking about people who take time off sick to get long weekends and people who have booked a holiday without getting prior permission for leave and when the leave is unavailable, they go sick with stress at work. You are not seperating the genuine cases from the non genuine cases. I do know what work related stress is and I am certainly not portraying myself as some sort of expert. If I was I wouldnt be asking for advice or other peoples views on this forum. I, at no time, suggested that everyone is a phony and I would never ask my GP to sign me off sick with stress at work if It was not genuine. I am quite shocked at your aggressive response to a perfectly genuine and much discussed subject and would be worried if I had to come to any of you for genuine advice. I have asked for other peoples points of view and just got real aggression in return. My point was that I felt that cases of compensation claiming were being abused by people because it is too easy to go to a GP and ask for a note stating "STRESS AT WORK". I am far from blind and the furthest person from intolerant anyone could hope to meet. You obviously have no idea what sort of person I am because you have gone straight for the throat and judged me completely wrongly. If you cannot offer genuine helpful advice then I suggest you dont offer any advice at all.
Why am I angry? Because the case I am talking about didnt even begin to reflect yours Jennifer, this one was only at work for 3 days!!!!!!!

Andrew Auty
Member - 17 posts

This has been a fascinating thread of comments and assertions. If nothing else it establishes that popular perceptions of stress are deeply interwoven with political (small p) issues.

I liked Craig Stuart's Stress MOT tool, which combines pragmatism and politics in a seemless way.

So little objective understanding of stress and health is available from the science literature that the only practical options left are political ones. This includes alignment with and rebuttal of popular culture where this may serve a useful purpose. The risk of taking this line is that it may reinforce views of stress which are not actually that helpful.

I deeply admire all those of you who have passionate views about something as scientifically elusive as stress and health. I hope your views are the best ones for you and for those for whom you care.

John Maltby
Member - 17 posts

Marie-Claire, contrary to the other parties, Can I thank you for your comments which I totally understand and agree with what you are trying to say.

Unfortunately, as you will have noticed from the other sarcastic vindictive and i'm holier than thou replys, you must be the She Devil herself to think in that way and you have to be told in no uncertain terms that their do-gooder and softly softly ways is the only way to go, the employer must give give give and the employee takes, takes takes, supported by the heavy handedness of the unions or else!!

Sadly those most in need end up loosing out to those wanting to get something for nothing and to get rich quick thanks to the above held attitudes and tribunals.

I would hope you receive more supportive comments from others but I wouldn't hold my breath, I had the audacity to respond to a particular thread over 6 months ago and am still receiving patronising comments.

Good Luck and thanks again.

Carole Simmons
Member - 96 posts

John I am not going to bother commenting on any of your text as I view it in the same way as I did the previous thread you mention here on bullying. What I will say is perhaps you should be wondering why you attracted the response that you did then and as you admit still are and will probably do again now having written this post.

Marie Claire - I do not believe you were asking for any advice at all on the subject or other peoples opinions when you opened this debate. You simply waded in with a very opinionated and accusing view which was responded to by a very well thought out and useful response by Craig which, not only did you ignore but you once again came back with another angry rant of your opinions. Now you admit this is based on one case based on somebody who has angered you. Are you therefore going to tar everyone with the same brush because of this one case? We all know that people pretend to be sick on a Monday or Friday in order to get long week-ends or tag days on the end of AL; this has been going on for years. As for calling it work place stress in almost epidemic proportions as you are eluding – I don’t think so. There may well be increased numbers of workplace “stress” cases which end up in tribunals, but as I said I doubt very much they have rushed into that situation for the cash!

You know nothing about what I know about the subject either personally or professionally and I don’t intend to get into that here other than to say that I know enough to be able to comment.

Nigel Dupree
Member - 49 posts

What is STRESS ?

It is the survival process by which we build resilience to physical and / or mental/emotional demand and just like selecting whether to use light or heavy weights in the gym to build stamina or muscle for endurance or sprint events it is the rest period between strain events that repairs or restores damage.

Known as GAS (General Adaptation Syndrome) it has three coping stages

1. Alarm = Escape: This removes the individual fro the stressor environment. More frequently, this is an effective decision rather than a chemical or structural change. Death may be an extreme but inadvertant result of adaptive exhaustion and is the ultimate escape, intended or not.

2. Tolerance: if either chosen or denied escape (captive in work/education) the individual 'digs-in' and tries to withstand stressor. Performance is compromised thereby prolonging the stressor and gradually over time sustained levels of fatigue results in exhaustion. Distress impairs auto-immune system (due in part to thymus & lymph gland changes) and if ignored will end in disease. However, under optimum conditions, adaptive changes are initiated, the third stage of coping response.

3. Adaptation: Structural or chemical changes allow some mitigation of distress increasing or reseting the alarm trigger to stressor stimulus. Unfortunately, successful adaptive change reducing signs of distress may encourage the individual to carry on making further change necessary.

Coping and adaptation is the organism's well-intentioned attempt to escape from stressor agent or environment and by the time adaptive exhaustion sets in the decline in their emotional and/or physical well-being will be significantly affecting their performance and 'presenteeism' may be the least of the employers concerns as the individual will be off long term sick if duty of care has not been addressed by a positive solution focused pastoral culture.

A degree of "intermittent stress" or strain is good so long as it supports fitness to perform better but, you ignore the warning signs of chronic fatigue and exhaustion at your peril...............................

Jennifer Chapman
Member - 31 posts

Well - I will apologise Marie Claire but you hadn't qualified what you said????

As one who has fallen victim to stress more than once I would say I'd love to have some of these peeps doctors - cos I've never found such a one!

Perhaps it's time to ask questions about the docs rather than the patients? I mean I've heard this kind of comment before elsewhere - it's having the basic nous to sort out the dodgers from the genuine cases - however they have to make a fairly instant judgment, GP appts allowing about 10 minutes - so maybe the sick note for just a week says it all? - mine were all for a month at a time!

A million years ago before Statutory Sick Pay when one claimed benefit immediately, (Min of Pens & Nat Ins) there were 2 conditions docs used to put on sick notes - Ergophobia and Plumbumitis (morbid fear of work and lead swinging!) that required immediate control - the claimant got the letter saying their case would be ref'd to the Regional Medical Officer within their 3 'waiting days' - and 99.9% of em had a miraculous recovery and went back to work! LOL

Unfortunately we don't have that safety net any more! - no cos it's employers who have to pay the ££££ it costs to have peeps off 'sick' - not the Government any more. Have we actually moved on at all since 1966 when I left school and worked for MPNI?

Discuss!

Phill S
Member - 81 posts

Thank you Craig, very well thought out answer.

And Marie Claire, re-read what you have written, it does come across as someone trying to win a fight, or start one.

Unfortunately there are vast differences in how employers treat their staff, for instance some work with union representatives in an attempt to have a smooth running happy workforce, whilst some employers would have secret meetings with managers to 'remove' someone that has so much as mentioned a union.

And there are many employees that abuse any benefits they have, to the detriment of others who are genuine.

You'll never get perfection, (who said that perfection is imperfect?)

E Palmer
Member - 17 posts

Stress does not happen overnight . Years of bullying take their toll and eventually you break down. I was off with stress for 11 months, I did not take my case to a tribunal as I could not face the anxiety and as the Union solicitors work on a no win no fee basis they are not interested in complex cases. Some days I contemplated suicide rather than going to work. My manager has got away with years off bullying. The grievance that I made against him was not upheld or the appeal, which is what I expected as both were heard by senior managers of my employer. The old boy network survives to this day.

I am back at work now but I am given all the jobs that others do not want to do and I am sent to different areas to make life difficult for me, as I am working under the same manger that bullied me for years. I would have liked to have taken my boss to a tribunal to teach him a lesson and make life better for other employees but as usual he has got away with it.

Perhaps if employers treated employees better they would not be off with stress. Greed and not survival or reasonable profits seems to be the god of the employer today. The greed for greater and greater profit is more emportant than the employees health today. This has been evident in the present financial crisis. Likewise you can only push people so far before they breakdown.

MARIE-CLAIRE CHAMBERLAIN
Member - 9 posts

I really do appreciate the helpful comments that have been posted. I do appreciate that there are very genuine cases of stress at work. I have worked since I was 17 years old and am now 44. I have seen and heard a lot of things and I am not blind to genuine reasons for sickness and absence from work. I am purely talking about the non genuine cases. These cases, as in the non genuine claimants for insurance etc., cost this country a fortune, and no-one can tell me that every insurance claim for theft, breakage or injury is genuine. The same applies to the subject we are talking about. I think that I have made is more than clear, I am not tarring everyone with the same brush, I am far more open minded than that. It is the same as saying that every criminal that pleads innocence, is innocent. Those of you who say that I am angry, I think that maybe you should be reading your responses to me. You will find a lot of anger in there. Yes, I do think that this system of sending patients to a Regional Medical Officer should be brought back in, it may cost a lot in the first instance, but it would save a fortune in the long run, what a brilliant idea. This is the sort of response I was looking for and asking about. Good ideas, people with open minds and suggestions and proper understanding of real human beings. Thank you to those with open minds,

Carole Simmons
Member - 96 posts

Marie Claire - I give up - I did not give you a good idea, I do not have an open mind and therefore do not have the proper understanding of a real human being..........

How long did you say you had worked in HR for???.......Hmmmm

Jennifer Chapman
Member - 31 posts

OK Marie Claire - get the Gov to pass the law to revert the SSP system back to the one they had in force before, then all the genuinely sick people will have yo lose out completely on anything resemebling their former salary right from Day 1. Will save everyone thousands of pounds. And put the lead-swingers off.

By the way - if you happen to find yourself unemployed (as I am at the mo having given up the hassle, I couldn't hack it any more) (but apparently I'm not ill any more either) But I can't claim benefit. And if I can't claim benefit I can't get access to any advice to find something I can do - or can re-train to do! I am not allowed to even pay for the gap I'm building up in my contribution record until after the end of the current tax year, when my savings will no doubt have run out. Shame isn't it? After I have worked solidly since July 1966 when I left school without any breaks for babies and such other luxuries as others could apparently afford.

Maybe I was even in a position where I could have gone to a tribunal - I seriously have no idea - I certainly didn't want any MORE stress!

I don't want anyone's pity or anything - I've always solved my own problems, that's what I was brought up to do. However that does leave one in the position where one doesn't have the slightest idea what to do when one can't do it ALONE. I could just do with a couple of nudges in the right direction now I ain't prepared to risk my mental health any more by doing the only job I have ever been trained to do!

Nigel Dupree
Member - 49 posts

Oh dear, stress will remain one of those foreseeable risks so long as it continues to be remain a "subjective issue" as until it can be objectively measured when reasonably practicable prevention, working conditions and/or spycho-social mitigators, will have to be adopted.

It's alright, as there are those out there who are working on developing an "objective" range of 'occupational risk assessments' for a number of common work/life stressors like display screen equipment in addition to 'subjective' self-assessments to raise self-awareness.

In the mean time following recent judgments the individual no longer has to suffer a history of stress presenting in or resulting in a first breakdown but, may react proactively to stressors / demands by reporting them as they become excessive prior to the individuals coping strategies overloading their physiological adaptive capacities and becoming ill.

In fact doing nothing and trying to dig-in and carry on regardless will be seen as contributory neglegence by the courts should it result in harm or injury over time.

Resilience against stressors, fear and coercion or bullying is impaired over time if not addressed to the point where ill-health is inevitable and the individuals capacity to cope or deal with the stressor deminishes significantly increasing risk of more serious and long lasting harm or injury.

So until more 'objective' measures are available the individual will remain responsible for subjectively reporting excessive occupational demand !!!!

MARIE-CLAIRE CHAMBERLAIN
Member - 9 posts

Carole, this is a prime example of you not reading or understanding my comments properly. I, at no time did I ever say that I was in HR. I am not and never would be. I was not looking for a fight, I wanted views or ideas, THATS ALL. Everyone seems to be taking this personally, I wouldnt dream of commenting in such an aggressive way about your personal issues. I have no knowledge of your plights and no right to comment on your personal circumstances, I am not critisising anyone else on their circumstances and wish well to all those with a genuine case, I am not talking about GENUINE CASES, hello there, I am talking about the OTHERS, the bandwagoners. Anyway, I have learnt that I am not going to get a non-biased view on this (John Maltby aside, and I am not sure about one or two others, are they being sarcastic or GENUINE, ha ha), so I think it is best left there

Carole Simmons
Member - 96 posts

Jennifer - sad as it is you are not alone but please try to hang in there I am sure things will improve. The most importand thing is that you made the right decision for you. Perhaps you could now use this time to upgrade your skills by whatever mode you can that wont cost anything so that when the time is right you can take advantage. I believe in fate and perhaps this may also be a time to change direction and get involved in something new. You would be surprised how many other skills you will find you have. Good Luck!

Nigel - I just LOVE reading your posts!!!!

Jacqui Lomas
Member - 1 post

Hi, I have been reading all your comments on both this topic and the topic of bullying on the other page(which do kind of cross over).

In terms of taking things personally, as we do not know one another personally, we can only be judged by, and held accountable for, our last comments.

I have been both a people manager and a victim of bullying myself (in different roles). In terms of management, however, I feel it takes a very skilled, perceptive manager, to recognise (and actually care about) the stress levels of their employees. Many genuinely stressed employees will not speak out for fear of people thinking they're not up to the job. Unfortunately, many managers tend to go down the disciplinary route, before all other options are explored, whether by choice/lack of management training/company culture.

In my experience, most workplace stress comes from poor 'people management' (which includes bullying). I do acknowlege that there are 1 or 2 individuals who will get away with what they can (I have had to manage 1 or 2 myself), but a good manager will deal these cases entirely separately. Don't get me wrong - this isn't about me and that I was the worlds best manager - I wasn't!!

I worked in a very big organisation and was absolutely shocked by the 'old school' style of management. Good sales performers were promoted to managing teams of 12 or more!! Doesn't selling and managing people require a different set of skills?? Needless to say, this is where the bullying happened....

jean doyle
Member - 21 posts

Marie Claire and John Malty you deserve all the comments that you have been given. You both show lack of respect for others in a big way. What gives you Marie Claire the right or insight into what Drs put on the sick note. The pts goes to the Dr and usually pours their heart out and the Dr has to put stress due to work if the pt tells them.
It is then the employer under the policies which should be in place to investigate why they are stressed. They should refer them to the Occi health dept who will investigate further and then give their findings to the management.
If that person through stress at work has to leave they are entitled to take the case to the tribunal for injury at work if it is indeed the employers fault usually
just because they could not be bothered to take any action against the perpetrator's. Some thought needed before chipping into any discussions here I think on stress at work especially if you don't represent anyone who is going through it or supporting some one.

MARIE-CLAIRE CHAMBERLAIN
Member - 9 posts

well, ok, lets release all the people in jail who say they are innocent, lets not have two sides to any story, let us say all things are one sided and all go round with blinkers on and snap the heads off anyone who dares to question it then shall we? You are making out that everyone who puts in a claim for anything must be entitled to it. The whole world is 100% honest and innocent. Well, hurrah, how much do you pay for a house on your planet? Dont bother replying because I am unsubscribing right now because you are a vicious and nasty bunch of people who cannot see two sides of life.

Carole Simmons
Member - 96 posts

ooops.......if the cap fits......

Nigel Dupree
Member - 49 posts

Oooh what a shame, freedom of speach is dead long live .....

All stressed out and becoming distressed as adaptive exhausted presents in irasible behaviours with little or no "Positive Regard for ALL" regardless of their contribution "non-judgmental" or otherwise.

I for one put it down to stress where system overload results in anxiety impairing the abilitiy to recognise the difference between real or imagined 'threat' , the difference between difference of opinion, discussion, banter, teasing and/or spiky, sharp or snide comments.

Lets 'play nice' as people clearly feeling bullied, unhappy and getting hurt ...

Mary Poppins remains, to the best of my knowledge, the only one who is 'practically perfect' and there will always be those who choose to cry wolf but that does not mean we should return to the 'ducking stool' to prove guilt or innocence of everyone else who genuinely manifest work related illhealth.

Equally it does not mean that there should not be improved or more objective risk assessments where solely reliant upon subjective reporting nor that subjective reporting of individuals experience is not real to them if they are becoming ill as a result of environmental or cultural stressors.

Research may be slow to catch up with evaluating less tangible affects of stressors yet in time will provide sufficient empirical evidence to develop reasonably practicable risk assessments and further refine defined existing recognised subjective stress management standards and mitigators.

In the mean time without people playing 'devils advocate' on both sides no one would benefit from raising awareness sufficiently for others to research the subject and introduce "change" - some would say not always for the better but there you go.

Have a good day and may your God go with you..

jean doyle
Member - 21 posts

Sorry that Marie Claire could not stand to be told, she was the one that made assumptions, but there we have it and I as a Union steward make no apology for looking after those who suffer at the hands of bullies or bad management practise.
Hey ho
All have a good Xmas
annea

David Ransome
Member - 24 posts

Marie Claire had, after her initial posts, made it clear that she was talking about those people, usually the minority, who misuse or abuse the system to the detriment of the majority. There are those who see every case as genuine and others who see them all as false. Nigels last post gives an excellent overview of the situation and Jacqui's comments are very valid too. It is a shame that MC, possibly suffering from verbally induced stress, has decided to go.
I must say in all sincerity that it's a pity that we don't have more people like Jean around doing an excellent job as an interface between management and staff. Let's hope, going back to the thread starter, that the increased levels of compensation go to the genuine cases and not the non-genuine ones usually picked up bythe media and alluded to by Marie Claire..
Have a great Christmas and a hopefully prosperous and happy 2009!

janet burton
Member - 102 posts

The point is that Marie Claire said she was not talking about genuine cases - but at no point did she explain how she would tell the difference between a genuine case and someone swinging the lead.
The person who decides is surely the Doctor - so why is she going on about sick-notes from Doctors? If she cannot accept a professional knows their job then what would she accept to prove it was genuine?
However, she is not reading this, and there is not much point in continuing the thread.

Huw Thomas
Member - 3 posts

All,
Stress does exist it is tangeable and can be an horrendous condition to suffer. As a manager I recgonise the symptoms in myself and hopefully in my team before it gets to a point where it becomes a real issue.

We do this by having regular chats over coffee etc and not just about the job but also home life and as a man with an all female team this can be an interesting experience for me.

However, I also have a local doctor who signs staff off for two months at a time for Stress probably caused by work, he does not refer the staff member to a counsellor, pescribe medication or want to see them in-between sick notes.

As a company we have offered independant counselling (funded by the business) and a second opinion by a company doctor with an aim to helping our staff member get back on her feet and the obvious selfish reasons to come back to work.

They have declined all this help from the company and have even accused us of harrassment by ringing them every two weeks to see if they are ok (different collegues including their union rep).

So what assessment should I make? I have a staff member who refuses help when offered, a doctor who doesn't care and a business to run.

I believe Marie Claire's disucssion was an open view on an open forum. It is very difficult to seperate the chancers from the geniune cases and its definitly not helped by profesionals who sign people off for two moths at a time without refferal.

However the replies I have read here attacking her post has been an eye opener also. Correcting people's opinions by providing information and advice is what this forum is for. Personal opinions and character attacks should be left in the trash can where they belong.

Regards and Merry xmas
Huw

Nigel Dupree
Member - 49 posts

Perhaps House of Lords have the answer ?

Lords’ ruling confirms burden of proof lies with employers 10/12/2008

'The House of Lords has ruled that in safety cases involving an injury the prosecution is under no duty to identify and prove specific acts or omissions, but the defence must show that it has managed the risk so far as is reasonably practicable. ' (Safety & Health Prtactitioner IOSH 12/12/08)

Stressors and coercive cultures are both 'foreseeable' and without compliance with "reasonably practicable" mitigative interventions there are still too few who will have the courage to stick their neck out when they are well aware of that happens to those perceived as "off message".

Ethics, duty of care, integrity and principles not worth so much when sitting at home popping ant-acids and happy pills unemployed with a record of stress related illhealth - got to be pretty tough and resilient to escape the collateral damage of being crushed by the systemic failure and friendly fire of omission to give a tinkers toot about human resources - just cost/benefit asset management, nothing personal.

Rick Jewell
Member - 2 posts

sounds like someone should be going off with stress soon..methinks

Nigel Dupree
Member - 49 posts

Naa, not stress just passionate about apathy, deniability and feedback-blindness where those who do know or should have known that they are managing an increasingly sick workplace are prepared to actively omit to do anything.

Knowingly omitting to doing something must actually make them feel a little inadiquate, to say the least, thereby contributing their own levels stress so there is no one immune to the stressors just a question of timing and last man standing.........